gogs, hwntws dialects map.

[stewgog]

Where do people think the dialect borders are in Wales. For example, where do people stop saying 'nain' and start saying 'mamgu'?

Where does a dach become a dych?

Never here 'becso' up here always 'poeni'?

Or is it not this simple? Is it somewhere in mid wales? Whay do they say in aberystwyth - Nain or mamgu?

[jammyjames60]

I would say Machynlleth is where the dialect changes, they speak Gog with a south-walian accent, and say some dialectal to the South and some dialectal to the North.

[dobbie82]

From Machynlleth to Aberaeron is a mix I think, My Husband lived in Aberystwyth for many years and the welsh he speaks is different to mine with quite a lot of south walian words.

Llaeth becomes Llefrith around Ganllwyd, Trawsfynnydd sort of way..

[siopybont]

The using of words like nain and taid is not so easy to determine as that. As people have moved and settled in different parts of Wales they tend to bring their mother tongue with them. That aside nain is very often heard in the South Wales valleys!

[Celticus]

I could be wrong but Blaenau Ffestiniog always struck me as a dialect border town. South of there people use use the word ' llaeth ' for milk whilst further north Gogs say ' llefrith.'

[siopybont]

I could be wrong but Blaenau Ffestiniog always struck me as a dialect border town. South of there people use use the word ' llaeth ' for milk whilst further north Gogs say ' llefrith.'

I disagree Celticus! I have friends from Llanberis and they have always used 'llaeth'. You are unable to delineate like that!

[Hazel]

I read an article with a headline (in Welsh) that said the work of the great hymnists should be sung in dialect. I wish I could ask the columnist "Which dialect".

[Celticus]

Thanks for putting me right, Siopybont. Seems as if the linguistic border is somewhere between Llanberis and Afon Menai then as most Bangorians I know use the word ' llefrith.'

[Hazel]

Siopybont, tell me what you think, please. I contend that one way to save the Welsh language is to standardize it so that everyone is speaking the same. Oh, small variations but not so many dialects in such a small country. What do you think?

[Mynwy]

sorry Hazel, I disagree - I don't think it should be 'standardized'. I'm sure it may well make learning it easier to an extent, and in fact I understand there has been an attempt to standardize it to some degree. However, one of the reasons there seem to be so many variations is because Welsh is very much a spoken language. Yes, it's written down now, but its heritage is as a spoken language (the reason early Welsh writings are not as old as those in other languages). The differences in vocabulary reflect this heritage, and I think it adds to the richness of the language.
Besides which, however much anyone tries to standardize a language, there will always be variations as people naturally change words in use, shortening, adapting, etc - this happens with all languages (except perhaps Latin which is primarily a written language, not a spoken one) because languages constantly develop.
As a hwntw-turned-gog ( ) I certainly wouldn't like to try and convince either group to 'convert' to the other's vocabulary in order to secure standardization!

[Hazel]

I am not sure I mean standardize as in everyone using the same word for the same thing. That doesn't happen anywhere. Although, I do think that now, with radio, television and more travel, a larger variety of words will be used all over. I think I am referring more to dialects - such variant pronunciations so that someone from Swansea cannot understand someone from Bangor - especially those who have learned spoken Welsh in one place or the other.

We have dialects in America but they do not vary so much that, if I go to Oregon or Texas, I will have trouble communicating because the "ei" has a totally different pronunciation around the corner. And, I will never hear (I think) "we don't say that in Florida; we say _____" when both are perfectly acceptable words.

It's an interesting idea. I still vote for standardisation along with the resultant enrichment.

I'm probably confusing the issue but it comes to me as I read Y Cymro. Some writers I can breeze through with no trouble. Others make no sense even after I know what every word means. A difference in word order perhaps? Or, a usage that exists only in the area where that columnist lives?

Well, I am full of "bright" ideas.

[Mynwy]

I have my doubts whether standardizing pronounciation (spoken or written forms) would be possible - think of it this way... were we to suggest standardizing English so that Brits and Americans all used the same words for the same thing, I don't think either would be too happy! (ok, it's a slightly bigger scale, but just as plausible a request linguistically! )

[Hazel]

To quote Sir Winston?

I know but I see such a conscious effort to keep North Walian separate from South Walian. Why? Why are 'rw^an' and 'nawr' exclusionary of each other?

And, why such a broad difference between what you can write and what you can say? An example: I may be quoting wrong but don't think so. A day or two ago, Ann told JJ something to the effect that you can say "sw^n" but not write it. You write "taswn". Why these firm dividing lines?

Example? In "Dweud Eich Dweud", I see prepositions divided into Literary Welsh, Conversational Welsh, North Wales Welsh and South Wales Welsh. There is also an OW but I forget that one. So, for 'am', there are "amdanaf fi/i", "amdana i", "amdana i" and "amdano i". Those last two really puzzle me. In South Wales, amdano and arno can be either first or third person.

And, according to a chart that I copied, there are seven different ways to say the "unreality" "If".

Well, we may never get standardization but I'll still vote for it if a vote is ever held.

[trevorakin]

it'd be nice if there were at least a book/dictionary that covered them all, in sections.

as a learner that has no chance of going to wales anytime in the near future (the money is going in other directions, these days), it's difficult to know what comes from where, at times. you have to stumble through it until it begins to make (little) sense. many educational tools don't specify what dialect they are in and having no formal welsh education, i know i likely mix dialects when writing to online welsh study friends. since i pull my studies from any ol' place i happen to find welsh education tools, regardless of what region they are originally produced.

(hope that made sense.)
trev

[Hazel]

Exactly and, speaking of mixing, Cwrs Sylfaen does a good job of it. There are places in the NW version where the tapes have NW but the books have SW.

I started from the beginning trying to learn both. Maybe I am standardising? I just use whichever sounds most pleasant to my ear.