Rwy'n or rydw i

[Catherine]

Hi everyone- I'm new to the site so Hello! Or helo rather! I'm trying to learn Welsh at home by myself and I'm a bit confused by rwy'n and rydw i? I did some basic Welsh at night-school back in the 80's and we were taught rwy'n. However I've also seen rydw i. Can someone explain the difference please? I've got 2 books by the same author- in one he says rwy'n dysgu Cymraeg but in the other he uses rydw i dysgu Cymraeg? I am a bit confused too as to what is written Welsh (formal) and spoken (informal) as some books I have don't explain which of the two is being used.
Diolch!

[Sionned]

It has to do with various contracions of the "I am" construction. I know how to recognize them but can't give you all the ins and outs of what they are contracted from. As I understand it though, if you spelled out all the words, it would be something like - Rydw i yn dysgu Cymraeg. However, whenever you have the "yn(+verbnoun)" following a vowel (as you do here) you always contract it to 'n - Rydw i'n dysgu Cymraeg. I have a button from the Welsh Language Board that contracts that further to - Dw i'n dysgu Cymraeg - and I know there are a lot of other ways to contract the form. I'm sure that Rwy'n dysgu Cymraeg is simply another way to contract the same sentence.

Now let's see who will correct me, or at least expand on what I've said!

[Catherine]

Now I'm really confused! (I can't go back to night-school as I've unfortunately got M.E. now and will have to learn snail's pace at home and it takes a while for things to sink in these days!) I should ask- if someone can explain which I should use- could you explain it ABC - I'm starting off learning basic greetings then I'll move onto "how are you" and all the various responses that could bring!
Just realised that perhaps the title of this post should've read rwy'n, rydw i or dw i'n !! Oh dear!

[Sionned]

Not to worry - any of them will be understood. You need to be sure, if you're using that sentence, to include the 'n before the dysgu when you use the 'rydw i' version - Rydw i'n dysgu Cymraeg. Otherwise, just pick which one is most comfortable for you to say - they all mean the same thing, and will be understood.

You'll find that Welsh speakers are very easygoing when it comes to Welsh learners - they're generally eager to help you learn so just start trying it and you'll get lots of suggestions. (And if you get too many suggestions, just ask someone here to clarify them!)

[Catherine]

Thanks for that - I was baffled as previously I'd also seen a posting on the web that said using rwy'n was too formal and they said to use dw i'n instead? You unfortunately don't hear Welsh spoken in my Valleys town (apart from in a class or playgroup!)

[dieuog]

I second Sionned's statement that it doesn't matter too much.

In spoken Welsh, I have heard "I am" as "dw i", "wi", "fi" AND "rwy". The last one was maybe in careful, but perfectly natural, speech. I have never heard "rydw i" in unpretentious speech. (But maybe someone can put me right!)

As far as I know, in writing, "rwy" and "rydw i" are regarded as equal. It's certainly NOT the case that "rwy" is a less full and correct form of "rydw i". It's just different.

[Catherine]

Thanks for that. I spoke to my cousin last night and she explained more or less the same (she's an advanced learner.) Both our grandparents spoke Welsh and it just stopped there sadly. But we're trying to right that wrong!

[Arwen]

I use 'dw i' or 'wi' here in Swansea. You sometimes here 'rwy' west of here toward Carmarthen, but mostly it's 'wi' in my area.

[Wayne]

The two forms of the verb that produce these contractions are:

yr wyf i

and

yr ydwyf i

Literary:

There seem to be these two alternative verb forms running through Welsh from way back. Put simply, one of the forms has the addition of "yd", so you find:

yr wyf i OR yr ydwyf i
yr wyt ti OR yr ydwyt ti
yw ef/hi OR ydyw e f

yr ^ym ni OR yr ydym ni
yr ^ych chwi OR yr ydych chwi
yr ^ynt hwy OR yr ydynt hwy

Generaly the versions with yd are of Northern origin, whereas Southern dialectsseem to have developed without the extra yd syllable.
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But they are both literary forms not spoken forms.
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Spoken:

YOU ARE

You get closer to the spoken forms by dropping the yr in favour of 'r - e.g. rwyt ti ('rwyt ti) is a spoken form (= you are). But you usually have to go further, as rwyf i, rydym ni and rydych chwi, rydynt hwy are still pretty formal !

Only rwyt ti is a true spoken form. The form with yd, i.e. rydw i (= I AM) is not a natural spoken form; as mentioned above, it sounds pretentious and it is much favoured by pedagogues and is recognisably "learner Welsh". So to be avoided if you want to sound as natural as possible !

I AM

The 'f' in rwyf i is dropped in speech, as the letter f very frequently is in spoken Welsh. It is an unstable letter and so you get rwy i (spoken towards Carmarthen according to the above).

Generally in the South however you drop the r and just say wy i (or you can write it as wy or wi).

As you go further North, wi gives way to the alternative form stemming from ydwyf i ... so, ydw i or dw i are heard.

The 'fi' form is considered sub-standard, e.g. fi'n siarad I SPEAK.

[Wayne]

WE ARE

Ydyn ni or ^yn ni. The -m at the end of ydym and ^ym becomes an -n in speech.

BUT in the North ydyn ni is more likely to be ydan ni or simply dan ni.

In the north-east the traditional dialects IF ANYONE STILL SPEAKS THEM give yden ni !

We are going = dan ni'n mynd or ^yn ni'n mynd.

Often it's contracted out of existence and you hear ni'n instead of dan ni'n or ^yn ni'n !
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YOU ARE(formal + plural)

Rydych chi and r^ych chi are more likely to be heard as Dych chi or ^Ych chi .

Again in the north, Dach chi and ydech chi are more likely.

Again you get chi'n siarad, where any form of bod seems to have been contracted out of existence altogether !

The chwi form is of course very formal.
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[Wayne]

THEY ARE

Rydynt hwy or r^ynt hwy would become ydyn nhw or ^yn nhw in speech.

Note that the final t of the formal varieties is dropped and the n becomes the last letter of the word, and that carries through into the spoken form of they = nhw (drop the y at the end) instead of hwy.

Again I think the north have ydan nhw and yden nhw.

Nhw is usually written thus, by the way but pronounced nw.
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HE / SHE IS

mae e / o often ma fe in the south

BUT we are interested in the yw / ydyw forms (used in emphatic constructions).

The south favours yw e or yw hi (spoken forms), the north - as usual - prefers the form with yd. So you get ydy(w), dropping the w.

Ydi o (= he is ) is an alternative many favour over ydy o or ydy e.

Thevword for he is confusing ! It coes from efe and efo in the past. In spoken Welsh these become e/fe and o/fo.

[dieuog]

"Rydynt hwy"
Say what?

[Chambo]

Yer don't you just love formal Welsh

[dieuog]

"Rydynt hwy" isn't formal Welsh. It's just plain bogus Welsh!

[Arwen]

Formal would be 'y maent'. However, the question form is 'ydynt' 'nid ydynt', so perhaps Wayne has gotten things mixed a little. (Citation: Swansea Uni Welsh Dept and Y Llyfr Berfau, D. Geraint Lewis t. 45)