So/Sa

[Siomedig]

2. Nag wyt ti'n barod?

both would be considered as southern dialect no. 1 probably the more common and over a wider area ~from Llanelli westwards and possibly as far north as around Aberyswyth (although there are other forms used in this area as mentioned above in N. Pembs).

Actually, no, nac as a question (as opposed to as a general negator) is standard, if not that common. So whilst nac w i'n barod is very much dialect, nac wyt ti'n barod? is not.

[dieuog]

nac as a question (as opposed to as a general negator) is standard

Really? Is that true?
Can you give some references for that?

[sianco]

Actually, no, nac as a question (as opposed to as a general negator) is standard, if not that common. So whilst nac w i'n barod is very much dialect, nac wyt ti'n barod? is not.

I'm a bit doubtful about this. Could you put it in context?

[Siomedig]

GK gives the following example in his Welsh dictionary: nag ych chi nawr yn wynebu rhwygiadau yn y blaid? and describes it as in use in the 'spoken language', and I've definitely heard it used that way (although this may be the influence of southern dialect on local speech since I also hear people saying things like mas all the time, too).

[garethrk]

Yes...I remember this example, it was Angharad Mair interviewing a politician on the news. Angharad is a southerner, of course.

[DaiTwp]

"it was Angharad Mair interviewing a politician on the news."

Isn't she from Llanelli which is right on the border where I suggested it was commonly used?

I agree that its use as a question is more widespread than as a general negator (which from what I can tell is almost exculsively used in the Swansea valley area) but as you move further west and north the "So ti'n___?" is far more widespread as both a question and general negator.

the Nag wyt ti'n_____? form quoted above - where the "c" turns into a "g" is characteristically southern, I would have thought that if this was used in the north it would more likely be "nad wyt ti'n___?

[Brychan]

2. Nag wyt ti'n barod?

both would be considered as southern dialect no. 1 probably the more common and over a wider area ~from Llanelli westwards and possibly as far north as around Aberyswyth (although there are other forms used in this area as mentioned above in N. Pembs).

Actually, no, nac as a question (as opposed to as a general negator) is standard, if not that common. So whilst nac w i'n barod is very much dialect, nac wyt ti'n barod? is not.

nag wyt ti'n barod? is non standard Welsh which you hear in Southern dialects. The formal standard form would be 'onid wyt ti'n barod? or less formally on'd wyt ti'n barod?

[dieuog]

the Nag wyt ti'n_____? form quoted above - where the "c" turns into a "g" is characteristically southern

Or is it that "-g" stayed "-g" in the south? I'm guessing that "nag" is the historical pronunciation.

I would have thought that if this was used in the north it would more likely be "nad wyt ti'n___?

You seem a well-informed gentleman, but if that is a genuine construction, I'll eat my het Gymreig.

[Jashwntw]

the Nag wyt ti'n_____? form quoted above - where the "c" turns into a "g" is characteristically southern

Or is it that "-g" stayed "-g" in the south? I'm guessing that "nag" is the historical pronunciation.

I would have thought that if this was used in the north it would more likely be "nad wyt ti'n___?

You seem a well-informed gentleman, but if that is a genuine construction, I'll eat my het Gymreig.

Poo! I can't remember which grammar I read, but nag is definately considered the traditionaly more accepted pronunciation according to the author.

Nac is probably a hardening is it not. Like ydw/ytw.

Words like nachdi are such a mouthful, I much prefer the southern nadi

actually think it might be nachdi / nag wyt

[Sionned]

So have you become a Welsh language authority now, Jason? Be aware that there are lots of differences in lots of places, and the only way to really understand what is going on is to be there, use the language, and listen to what other people use. And by "there" I mean all those different places.

[Jashwntw]

So have you become a Welsh language authority now, Jason? Be aware that there are lots of differences in lots of places, and the only way to really understand what is going on is to be there, use the language, and listen to what other people use. And by "there" I mean all those different places.

No, no, no. I am really the last person who'd ever say that. I have been trying to teach myself welsh for all of 2 seconds. Don't ever let yourself get that impression of me

I'm only making observations which are regurgitated from third party sources. You are free to discredit any comment I make I assure you!

My only goal here is to listen to you guys and what you say and feel a small part of the welsh speaking/learning community And make a few small utterances, however erroneous they may appear to you, so I apologise if I have said something out of hand.

[Jashwntw]

Just been on google - books search. See Sabrina Bendjaballah Morphology 2000

nag > nac result of a later re-analyzation in some parts of Wales, whereby they assumed that the g is a soft mutation. Meaning nag is the original form
As far as I understand. I could stand corrected.

I think my original comment came from Heidi Gruffudd. I'll check...

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=raMo3D8gz14C&pg=PA81&lpg=PA81&dq=Sabrina+Bendjaballah+mutation+nac&source=bl&ots=6of76ZPu8t&sig=ELzWgwrNIifUU6ojmBNTDTDVw4k&hl=en&sa=X&ei=16X1T9HnOonv8QPb8fCUBw&ved=0CEgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Sabrina%20Bendjaballah%20mutation%20nac&f=false

[Brychan]

I think that ac/nac instead of ag/nag is just a spelling convention that is at odds with the actual pronunciation.

it's quite common in Welsh eg

llt >lld
gwallt (pronounced gwalld), gwyllt (pron: gwylld)

st > sd
Iesu Grist (pron: Grisd)
brecwast (pron: brecwasd)

If you study cynghanedd, it's the pronounciation which is important when you alitterate words and not the spelling.

Crist a roed i ddwyn croes drom
Cr.sd....................cr..s.d

Ac o'r gwyr / y gorau gaf
. g.. r g..(r).... g. r.. g (f)

[Siomedig]

I think that ac/nac instead of ag/nag is just a spelling convention that is at odds with the actual pronunciation.

There are, if I remember correctly, a lot of spellings like that in Old Welsh or Middle Welsh (which led some people to believe that Southern hardening was a conservatism); I'm not sure whether this one is, though, since it causes mixed mutation which historically was caused by a cluster of /t p k/ + a consonant (so nid for example was apparently originally nit, and so on, with a very early voicing of post-vowel consonants).

Although actually, that post-vocalic lenition happened very early in Welsh, so it's possible that it was 'nac' before Welsh was ever written down and pronounced 'nag' even in Old Welsh despite a conservative spelling with <c>.

Anyway, I've never heard anything but 'nag' for written nac and even in school we were taught to pronounce it that way (which is amazing since if there's anywhere obsessed with spelling pronunciations it is the second-language school system).