So/Sa

[Jashwntw]

What is ohono?

[Siomedig]

A form of o. Ohonof i, ohonot ti, ohono fo, ohoni hi, ohonon ni, ohonoch chi, ohonyn nhw.

[Jashwntw]

A form of o. Ohonof i, ohonot ti, ohono fo, ohoni hi, ohonon ni, ohonoch chi, ohonyn nhw.

O, so from? From me, from you, from him...?

[sianco]

A form of o. Ohonof i, ohonot ti, ohono fo, ohoni hi, ohonon ni, ohonoch chi, ohonyn nhw.

O, so from? From me, from you, from him...?

"Of me" in this case.

"Sai'n gweitho fory" < "Does dim ohona i yn gweithio fory" (or so they say!) "There's none of me working tomorrow".
I'm not so sure.

"O" can mean "of" and "from" which can be a little confusing.

"Llun o'r awyr o'r Wyddfa" - Is it an aerial photo of Snowdon or a picture of the sky taken from Snowdon?

[Jashwntw]

"Sai'n gweitho fory" < "Does dim ohona i yn gweithio fory" (or so they say!) "There's none of me working tomorrow".

Sianco, where you are from is dwi ddim and sa'i interchangable or is sa'i generally used pretty much all the time?

[sianco]

"Sai'n gweitho fory" < "Does dim ohona i yn gweithio fory" (or so they say!) "There's none of me working tomorrow".

Sianco, where you are from is dwi ddim and sa'i interchangable or is sa'i generally used pretty much all the time?

I'm from Pencader in Carmarthenshire but I live in Trefor in Gwynedd.
"Sa i" is used in Pencader in ordinary speech.
"Dw i ddim" may be used in circumstances which are a little more formal.
"Dw i ddim" is used in the north.
"Nid wyf" is formal.

[Jashwntw]

I'm from Pencader in Carmarthenshire but I live in Trefor in Gwynedd.
"Sa i" is used in Pencader in ordinary speech.
"Dw i ddim" may be used in circumstances which are a little more formal.
"Dw i ddim" is used in the north.
"Nid wyf" is formal.

So, to your grandmother you would say dw i ddim, or just in an interview or something like that?

[sianco]

I'm from Pencader in Carmarthenshire but I live in Trefor in Gwynedd.
"Sa i" is used in Pencader in ordinary speech.
"Dw i ddim" may be used in circumstances which are a little more formal.
"Dw i ddim" is used in the north.
"Nid wyf" is formal.

So, to your grandmother you would say dw i ddim, or just in an interview or something like that?

No, to your grandmother you would say "sai'n". In an interview you would be more likely to say "Dw i ddim".

[Jashwntw]

No, to your grandmother you would say "sai'n". In an interview you would be more likely to say "Dw i ddim".

Diolch yn fawr

I only ever go to North Wales, so you have been very helpful. That's where my Mum is living right now.
Haven't been to South Wales in years

What would my tad-cu say?

[garethrk]

"There's none of me working tomorrow".
I'm not so sure.

Neither am I...sounds very clunky and cobbled together, and not a natural progression from the sense. A bit of a desperate explanation, I think...though some are certainly convinced.

[Brychan]

You would think that if so fe comes from nid oes dim ohono fe - you would get a interrogative tag os e

I would say:

Dyw e ddim yn dod nawr nag yw e - he's not coming now is he

But if you use so fe - shouldn't you say:

So fe'n dod nawr nag os e - does dim ohono fe'n dod nawr nag oes e

If some people say that now or used to say that then 'so fe' definately comes from 'nid oes dim ohono fe'

[garethrk]

Very good point.

[Jashwntw]

Very good point.

Hello Gareth,

Braf i cwrdd a chi

What is your theory on where the so/sa comes from?
Only if it's not giving anything away

[Brychan]

You would think that if so fe comes from nid oes dim ohono fe - you would get a interrogative tag os e

I would say:

Dyw e ddim yn dod nawr nag yw e - he's not coming now is he

But if you use so fe - shouldn't you say:

So fe'n dod nawr nag os e - does dim ohono fe'n dod nawr nag oes e

If some people say that now or used to say that then 'so fe' definately comes from 'nid oes dim ohono fe'

I'm going to argue against myself now and give reasons why i think the phrase may come from - nid oes dim ohonof i:

The preposition 'o' is sometimes heard in South Wales as:

o'ono i, o'ono ti, o'ano fe, o'eni ddi, o'onon ni, o'onoch chi, o'enyn nw
and in N pembs as:

ohona i, ohonat ti, ohano fe, oheni ddi, ohonan ni, ohonach ch, ohenyn nhw

The Demetian dialect of N pembs runs so/sa - so you get forms based on the dialect forms of the preposition o which give you - sa i, sanat ti, sano fe, seni ddi, senyn nhw..I would argue that to run all the negative forms of the verb bod as so - so fe, so nhw etc is recent and due to the forms being simplified by younger speakers - o' fi, o' ti, o' ge, o 'ddi, o' ni, o' chi o' nhw. Who is brave enough to say they really know

[garethrk]

I think, assuming that sa i, so fe etc does come from does dim ohona i etc, that the development you suggest is very plausible. The problem I have, however, is with that underlying assumption - I just find it hard to believe that such a roundabout way of expressing the simple NEG present of bod would ever have presented itself to ordinary speakers as necessary or desirable. Language tends to simplify with time, not get more complicated. I also think it's suspicious that a similar development didn't happen with the very common past tense of bod.